Certainly, I've been known to have opinions and to argue them with any and all comers. Also, I've been (unfairly in my mind) accused of never admitting when I've been wrong. Well, I'd like to take the start of the '09-'10 ('10...did I really just type that?) to clear the air a bit and hopefully start anew (naive as that notion may be).

I would have to think the #1 thing I've been wrong about was last season. I didn't see many reasons for optimism going into last season and except for a couple/three games I thought it was a pretty good year by most accounts. Would have liked an NCAA win, but minus a couple of games, it was a fun team to watch, with rising young talent.

While I was intrigued by Mike Davis from day one, I won't deny I questioned the wisdom of bringing in another big man when we already had a stable full and lacked guards not only in number, but quality. Turns out he was a pretty good addition to say the least. He's got a great chance to be one of the better big men we've ever had at Illinois.

Speaking of big men, I always felt Tisdale would contribute, but I honestly didn't think it would be until he was an upperclassman. While he was a little streaky, he undoubtedly was an important piece to our puzzle last year. A few teams seemed to have no answer for him. I hope he can make the next step and be a consistent force in Big Ten play.

Assuming we have a good season, and yes, even I think this is a good bet, I also doubted that Weber could get things turned around this quickly. Some of you will find this hard to believe, but assuming recruiting picked up (which it did) I figured Weber might get things turned around, although I didn't expect it to be this fast. I don't feel like I was "wrong" on Weber, but I was deeply skeptical. I will maintain that all I've ever said is Weber has to recruit better if he wants to field teams that can compete at a high level in March. I feel he's a pretty good coach (not the uber guru some say he is), but plenty good enough to win with assuming he has some horses. It appears they are now in the barn. I'm as excited as I've been about Illinois since Dee Brown and James Augustine were wearing orange. It should be a fun year!

It takes a big man to admit he was wrong.

So, I'm thinking that healthy eating and some exercise will get you back to the old Tempo34.

No just admit that the program was only in "pretty good" shape when Bill Self left and that you overreacted to the events from April 2005 - October 2007 and you will be fully cleansed.*

*sarcasm

Tempo, you were NEVER wrong about the state of IL BB program. There is really no doubt that the program slipped badly and that a bunch of question marks were in the air about Bruce's ability to resurrect the program from his own mistakes. The lingering question was when would he start having successful recruiting classes and what would happen if he did not? It was a perfectly reasonable concern that many of us had. Even now, Bruce will not really prove himself for the long term until he makes multiple deep run(s) [note plural] into the NCAA, gets to final fours, etc. and hopefully along the way finally wins the elusive NC game for IL. OBVIOUSLY, he now is getting the talented players to take Illinois back to the promised land. But, no one can seriously argue that Illinois was not in trouble with a really bad season and not winning NCAA tournament games in recent years. In reality, we still are waiting for the next deep NCAA run by Bruce. It definitely should happen. To be remembered as a great coach though, he is going to have to recruit and produce big time in a CONSISTENT manner. It is the future seasons at IL in which Coach Weber will define his body of work at IL, not the past. And it should be exciting.

11/13/09

The IB spinning and backtracking has officially begun.

I haven't seen the term MERRY MEN used in awhile. Sometimes you just pick the wrong horse.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Tempo. I think you and I were wrong about all the same stuff.

As I've said in other threads, if could all just come to a middle ground and agree on the following two statements:

1. There was a substantial dip in the program. The problems went beyond Eric Gordon and Jamar Smith. Weber deserves the blame for those problems.

2. Weber fixed the problems in spectacular fashion, for reasons that go beyond just hiring Jerrance Howard. The future is as bright as it has been at any point in recent memory.

Not everyone is ever going to like Weber's personality, but if we can all agree on those two statements, we can simply focus on enjoying the current team and it's players, and put the past to bed, finally.

Nice post.

Grab a seat and let me pour you some kool aide. Cheers!

I am drinking!

As someone who, overall, probably fell closer to the "merryman" end of the spectrum vs. the "realist" side =), I too had my share of concerns with regard to recruiting----and maybe even voiced them once or twice =). All the while, man alive, I couldn't be happier to have been proven wrong. And then some!

Well said Tempo, OB, other folks =). Very exciting times ahead gang! Did I mention I was ELATED about being wrong???!!!

Go Illini!

I'm drinking it Jeff. Big time.

Now how about we kill the "I-was-right-and-you-were-wrong-and-he-was-wrong-and-she-was-right" threads (and yes, I know you didnt start this one)

This 3 year debate is officially over. We've moved on, and up.

No mas.

ILL

I'm admittedly having a hard time letting guys like you and Orangeblazer off the hook. Some of the stuff you posted about Coach Weber and the program in general on the KU fan forum is inexcusable. You're basically a fair-weather fan and now that things seem to be going good again you're back on board with the program.

The major arguments for the so-called "merry men" were:
1. Give Weber some time to turn the recruiting situation around
2. All programs will periodically go through a rough patch
You were dead wrong in attitude towards the situation. You continued with the inane argument that recruiting should have taken off 2004-05 FF when there was no empirical evidence that this is how things should work in every situation and at every point in history. In my book, you're a first-class idiot and a spineless fair-weather fan.

Sorry guys, I really needed to get that off my chest. I'm not in the forgiving mood in regards to guys like Tempo. IMHO, the program doesn't fans like him.

Cosign

And they fail to admit that things looked worse than they were because of losing Jamar and Gordon which left the team with no outside shooting/scoring which meant that the guys like Chester/Pruitt/Randle became a bad mix because teams could pack the defense into the lane.

We would have been a NCAA tourney team 2 years ago with either, and would have been a top 25 team with Jamar and Gordon on the floor together.

Nice post.

Like I care.

I didn't start this thread so we could argue, and I wasn't even planning on commenting on it again, but I have nothing to be "let off the hook" for. I simply admitted some things I was wrong about. I was still right on many points. And to your argument of being "a fair weather fan," I wouldn't have spent so much time here the past couple/three years if I was a fair weather fan. I wouldn't make trips to Champaign in 19 loss seasons if I was a fair weather fan. I wouldn't watch every single game if I was a fair weather fan.

And to rebut your points:

1) The situation shouldn't have been in need of such a "turnaround" to begin with.
2) Recruiting was exceptional before 2005. It's exceptional now. Why did it go almost completely into the tank for several years?

Just because I was unhappy with the head coach doesn't make me a bad fan. I was in love with Weber too at one point. Around 2006, that was no longer the case. But if he can bring in top talent and keep the program out of trouble, I'm more than happy to have him as coach.

I really didn't write this for you and Illiniflight33. I wrote this for the consumption of reasonable people. And I don't need your forgiveness. Thanks.

and reasonable people will take it they way it was intended.

A good post no doubt, regardless of who here is in a "forgiving" mood... which I must say, is just funny as hell. Seriously, time for some people to GTFU. Time to sit down, smile, and drink some of Jeffs koolaid.

There are far more important things going on here these days. Did I mention we have this guy named BPaul... He's kinda good...

And Weber is still an arrogant, hypocritical, self-aggrandizing, tactless loudmouth jerk.

who has an excellent program going in the right direction with the brightest future anyone can remember.

you need help.

And someone who shouts this from the rooftops at every given opportunity is a shining beacon of class.

I was certainly wrong about last year's team. I had posted at the start of the season last year that we'd barely be .500.

The exhibition games this year were causing me some serious doubts but last night's game went a ways towards alleviating them.

At least he is not a big, giant Douchebag like you prove to be constantly.

Dude, the guy admitted that he was wrong. Let it rest. Enjoy the victory .... and the ride we can expect over the coming years.

Yes, a card-carryng Merryman here. Based on Weber's success at SIU with marginal talent, his defense-first mentality and his reputation among the coaching ranks, I've alway been a believer... I just felt it would time to let the Pruitt years pass and get some athletes in here to play the kind of game for which his system is built.

Go Illni.

How can you call someone spineless for stating their opinion? Especially after all but admitting they were wrong. Spineless people, by defintion, aren't opinionated. Not knowing the meaning of an elementary word such as 'spineless' makes you a first class idiot in my book, jaybird.

Another term you threw around without knowing the meaning of is 'fair weather fan' A fair weather fan is someone who takes a rain check from even following the team unless the W's are piling up. Tempo and OB aren't that. They're always involved in the debate on the b'ball board and have been for years. Why didn't they go away if they're 'fair weather fans'

EZ me with you home address if you'd like and I'll mail you a copy of Webster's.

Sorry guys, I really needed to get that off my chest.

Jayboy, I have never posted on Phog.

Moreover, both Tempo and I have been here every step of the way, cheering just as hard as you for this team to have success. Just because we've been more vocal about our criticism of the coach doesn't mean we weren't cheering for the team.

And you failed to mention that the major arguments of the so-called "merry men" were that Weber didn't need to recruit at a high level, because he could win with players who were less talented. That was soundly proven to be false.

Regardless, how lovely of you to take an olive branch in this thread and douche it up like you do so well with your whole "they're bad fans" schtick.

And you fail to admit that the problems ran deeper than Jamar and Gordon.

I'm not surprised though that you, too, can't just find a middle ground and move on. Tempo and I admit we were wrong about a number of things and rather than taking the high road and meeting us halfway, and moving forward to focus on the team we have now, you decide to talk about just how right you were.

Shocking.

Look the team 2 seasons ago would have been a tournament team with the players in place who had committed to Illinois.

No, Tempo and yourself have admitted squat.

you guys were wrong as hell about Weber in the first place. The entire point, and its critical, the 08 team was flawed because it didnt have a scoring option that Jamar and/or Gordon would have provided. With either guy that team makes the tourney.

Now if you want to argue about the talent level to be much better, ie an elite 8 team thats fine. I am in agreement.

If you want to say that the 08 class was of concern, then thats fine. I am in agreement.

BUt the point you guys missed before the 08 season, during the 08 season and afterwards was that the situation was never as dire as you all thought. The talent was never as bad as you thought.

As an example I have watched a bunch of people trying to say chester got a lot better his senior season. NO, he made normal improvement between his jr and sr season. He looked a lot better because in 08 Pruitt/Randle/Chester couldnt shoot.

In 09, Chet was on the floor with guys who could.

We were 62-40 in a three season stretch, with no NCAA Tourney wins. We lost to Tennessee State at home. Gordon would have been on only one of those teams. Recruit more than 4 guards in 4 years and you don't have the same problems. There were problems beyond Jamar and Gordon.

And again, all we said about Weber is that he would need to recruit better than he was to win. That was true.

But stay classy flight. Way to join us on the middle ground.

Edit: Oh, and Chester DID get better last year. He was a different player.

No problem at all. Right on the money.

:lol:

Exactly. The problem was systemic and ran much deeper than a missed recruit and a washed out player. With solid recruiting, we'd have still been a tourney team and would have won more than 0 tournament games in the post-Dee Brown era.

You really can't be this dumb, right? You do realize the term "spineless" is being used as a metaphor? Thanks for the offer, maknit_rain-man, but I rather take instruction from my 8-year old than you.

OB, if the original post had came from you, I would not had a problem with it at all. Although, I think you and Tempo were dead wrong in your opinions and myopic in perspectives on the situation. One thing you did not do at the time, unlike Tempo, was to go to an opposing fan forum and badmouth and deride Weber, the program, and other Illini fans. IMHO, that's pretty spineless. Have you notice Tempo has not refuted that part of my original post in this thread.

When I first started going to Phog, I defended Weber daily until I was blue in the face. Then it became obvious that Weber was in over his head (at least for the time being) regarding recruiting and that's when I stopped defending him, and yes, even making fun of him on occasion. And yes, I made fun of some Illini fans as well, some of them deserve it. Everyone fanbase has its loonies, we're no different. Although I went to Phog often, there were still more than a few people there that gave me hell all the time. All I've ever tried to be is a rational voice. If that makes me an outcast to Bruce Weber apologists, then so be it. Bruce Weber has weathered the storm and I'm fine with him being our head coach. As much as I criticized Weber, the one thing I never did was call for his job. Even though things got way off track, I thought he deserved a couple of years to get it turned around. He did, and kudos to him.

And my apologies to you, Senator McCarthy.

Not true. Weber's recruiting was dismal before Gordon. The program was in the ditch. The program was between a rock and a hard place until Weber got the recruiting revived. There were huge questions marks at one point in time. Give credit to Coach Weber. He and his staff have turned it around. But, you know, we still have to do well this season and next. For Weber to go down as a GREAT coach he has to be consistent during the next SEVERAL years and really produce on the court and in the tournament. Will he? Weber's resume is still very THIN compared to the top coaches in DI BB. How many NCAA tournaments wins to we have in the last four years? An elite program produces wins in the tournament. Weber has not done that the last few years. I agree that the future looks incredibly bright. I will repeat that, the future looks incredibly bright. The problem is that everybody wants to count chickens before they hatch. Hell, some people thing they have the eggs when they don't. Come back in three years when we actually have evidence of a successful turn around, lots of NCAA tournament wins, and hopefully another final 4 appearance and maybe a NC. REPEATED success in the NCAA tournament defines a great program and great coach. Weber has yet to show that. I anticipate that he will. I look forward to future successes. But, don't try to say the program was not in the ditch, because it was. You don't lose 19 games and not win in the NCAA because you have maintained a program at a high level. This season looks to be exciting. The offense is much better and the talent overflowing. It should be fun. Go Illini.

NM.

Wow.

Google the term metaphor or look it up in the dictionairy, whatever.

Once you do that, you'll probably realize why I've ben laughing at your dumb ass for the entirety of the time I've been typing this.

On second thought, ask to borrow your 8 year olds grammar textbook.

People often see themselves reflected in others.

We need to have a funeral for all of the dead horses and bury them. I appreciate Tempo's tone in starting this thread. He shouldn't have been jumped on. It's time for us to stop having these endless arguments about the same thing. Let's enjoy the fact that the new era has started and move on.

i never have, never will, comprehend why any fan would trash their own team and Coach in public.

I won't beat the dead horse for long, but things would have looked a lot different with a sober Jamar Smith and Eric Gordon on the wings. The current junior class with Gordon added to it would have been a hell of a class. imo

Now, the mistake Weber made was not having a contingency plan for Gordon when most everyone could tell Gordon was wavering. Gordon screwed us big time that year. However, Weber learned from it, and he has been recruiting like crazy ever since. Changing his philosophy to offer younger stud recruits has been a gold mine. Hope it continues. :)

But the 16-19 team should have had Pruitt in the middle, a healthy Brian Randle at forward, with Jamar and Gordon on the wings with Meacham backing them up and Frazier/McCamey at the point. The biggest problem with that team is that it couldn't score. It played good defense, and the firepower of Jamar and Gordon on the wings would have given it a totally different look. Put Meacham at the point against zones with those guys on the wings and Trent gets wide open looks instead of searching for looks.

Ok, no more looking back for me. Now we will have Tisdale in the middle with Leonard backing him up, Davis at power forward with Griffey/Cole behind him, Richardson, McCamey and Paul at the guards with Bertrand, Head, Legion, and Jordan backing them up. And Jereme Richmond playing somewhere on the court a lot of the time. :) Way different feel to it, eh? :)

I wish you could send a copy of Webster's to a whole bunch of these posters.... Not that I think it would help them any.

Absolutely.



Agree.



The situation with Jamar raises a different entire can or worms including team supervision, etc. Let's not revisit that. But, you are right, that team surely would have been entirely different and certainly much more successful in terms of wins and losses.



Yep. I about peed in my pants watching Paul last night on espn360. The kind of raw talent on the team now is just an entirely different ball game. With next year's class, I am not sure that the last two Final 4 teams when individually compared to these two recruiting classes match the overall potential of this group. I certainly am looking forward to these talents being developed and coached by Weber and company.

I agree. And let's hope that Zook gets the FB program turned around to the degree that Weber has already exhibited. Then we can all be excited ALL year instead of 1/2 the year.

That's all well and good, but I'm sure we weren't the only team in college basketball to lose a recruit and lose a good player to injury/suspension etc. I'm not saying coaching and recruiting is easy, but a top tier program should be able to weather the loss of a player or two without losing 19 games. Granted, things weren't always easy for Bruce Weber, but recruiting just wasn't very good for a period of time, plain and simple. Thankfully, that's all changed now. I see no reason Weber can't join the elite rank of coaches in the near future (the kind of coach with a national title, multiple Final Fours or consistent deep tourney runs).

Wrong metaphor; but I got your point. A spineless person is wishy washy and hedges. I would NOT call the Weber critics wishy washy; maybe obtuse.

Well, he finished three games under .500. Think about this; he was one game from an automatic bid to the NCAA With an improbable sweet 16 run, he would have won 20 and still set the school record for losses. That said, take Hummel and JJohnson off PU; what do you have? Take Steve Lanter and Reno Gray off the 1979 Illini. what happens to a team that was 15-0 with one of them? There have been any number of top teams that could easily have been sub- .500 with the loss of two key players. Picture Memphis in 2008 without Rose & Douglas-Roberts; IU in 1981 sans Isaiah Thomas and Ray Tolbert; or taking Magic & Kelser off the 1979 Spartans.

The bottom line is we only brought in something like 4 guards in 4 years. I'm not saying it was always the easiest or the best of circumstances, but better overall recruiting over that period would have made a significant difference.

We didn't just lose a recruit and a good player, we lost a superstar recruit and the best player on the team. imo But, again, that time is over and I am more interested about whether we are going to get Beal and Hamilton these days.

I shall end the night by agreeing on that. They should have taken another guard or two between 2005 and 2006. Not sure who though. Chet was a good get in 2005; do we agree on that? He took Jamar over the kid that went to Marquette {McNeal}; just like Self took McBride instead Shannon Brown. In 2006, they maybe put too much effort into Scheyer and Collins. Perhaps they should have cast a wider net; but who? Beverly? Will Walker? Jerome Randle? Leon Freeman? They tried to get in on Derrick Jasper, Willie Kemp, Tory Jackson, & Ramar Smith, iirc.

Oh, almost forgot another major point I was wrong on. Jerrance Howard...while I loved the idea of adding him to the staff, I questioned if it was the right time. Clearly, Jerrance was ready for the job and has been a sensational addition to the staff. Another point I'm glad I was wrong on.

On this, I thought it was the right hire from the outset.