I must admit that yesterday's win made me smile all day. It's so nice to win a football game against a decent team... heck, it's just nice to win a football game. I've been reading the board religiously since the game and there are a couple of things that I have questions about, or that I feel like need to be pointed out again:

- Juice was 8 for 11. Even though he only threw 11 times that's impressive. The incompletions were... the one really bad throw to Benn across the middle that came up about 10 yards short, the throw behind the receiver about 5 yards down field on the left (it might have been to Leshoure), and Cumberland's drop in the endzone (I couldn't tell if this was a drop or if Juice missed him).

- Juice was sacked 4 times. That's not good. If he threw 11 times and was sacked 4 times that means he got sacked more than 25% of the time he dropped back. The O-line needs to step up on the pass protection.

- 3 turnovers to 0 turnovers. That was huge. Illinois has to win a game when they protect the ball this well, and luckily they did (kind of reminded me of the tOSU game in 2007).

- The blocked punt could have been really bad if not for the fumble on the next play. No one is talking about this, but something like that can lose you the game.

- Eller's field goal attempt was so far off it was comical. Anyone know more about Dimke's FG potential? I like Eller, but it seems that he is having a confidence issue.

- Speaking of Dimke... his kick-off out of the endzone actually looked to get the team pumped up. Good stuff.

- I know we talk about this every game, but what happened to Rejus? He seemed to not be in the game much at all in the second half. Did I just miss him, or is something wrong?

- Anything else that needs to be mentioned?


(I rarely start threads and I know there are plenty of others to tack this on to, but I wanted to start a new one...so whatever)

As to whether the 8 for 11 performance was impressive...not really. Juice did the kinds of things he's been able to do for years. I certainly didn't count all the throws, but at least one was a bubble screen to Benn (which any QB in D1 can reliably make) and 1 was the circus catch by James (hard to be that impressed by a ball that was just a jump ball). Juice wasn't making downfield reads (to the point where one of the announcers called him inept at reading a defense going into half) and wasn't completing mid-range passes. He did a good job airing out the ball and running, but let's not pretend that he turned some kind of corner with respect to all the elements of the passing game he's struggled with all year.

As to the Cumberland pass, it wasn't a drop. It went off his fingertips, but there was no way he was catching that ball.

In addition, again, while I didn't catalogue the sacks, at least one (it may have been the last one) was on Juice. Call it a coverage sack if you want, but he held the ball way too long before protection finally broke down. There was no excuse to take the sack and not throw the ball into the 5th row.

Overall, kudos to Juice on a game well played. While I think the team will be better off without him next year, he matched up great against those DickRod Michigan teams and I'll definitely miss him when we roll into the Big House.

i stopped reading when you discounted his completion to chris james as being a good pass. that was a very good ball.

Years. Come now, a student athlete only plays four years. Maybe you mean months.



Petty darn good throw if you ask me. The ONLY person who could catch it was James as the MI defender was right with him like glue. The ball had to be over his shoulder. Juice placed it perfectly.



Let's see 8 for 11 passing is a 72 percent completion rate. Sounds pretty good to me.



Well, there is no doubt that he has struggled this season, but, if Schultz/Zook had called other games like the second half of MI, it would have been a more consistent Juice. He plays best when he is running the option and passing off the option. Zook/Schultz tried to convert him into a drop back passer which he is not.




Interesting comment. Both TV announcers said it was a beautifully thrown ball that Cumberland should have caught. Cumberland has dropped his share of money passes over the months. Glad he caught two today! I am sure he would like to have another chance at that potential TD pass.



Absolutely, but we are talking about one single play. I guess I will bring up Schultz calling a run between the tackles on 2nd and 17! Now that was a real gem of a play call. Goes right along with running a two minute drill at the end of the first half by calling runs. What a way to save clock along with not calling a timeout to make MI kick the FG earlier. My estimate is that Zook has left at least 140 first half timeouts on the field since his arrival at IL (and that may be a conservative estimate).



Name Illinois quarterbacks that have beat MI twice and pretty much destroyed them in both games. Do any names come to mind? Juice is an incredibly gifted athlete. I think he stlll will have an OK year in spite of Schultz's play calling. Again if the coaching staff had played to Juice's strengths he would have had a terrific year. I will miss watching him. He simply is electrifying at times. Think the MI D wants to see him across the line of scrimmage again?! Think not.

This is the best game Juice has played on some time. A year or better.

We got to put him into a position where the play action was legitimate.

He ran the option incredibly well.

Made good decisions on the passes he did throw.

The only thing I would quibble with is that Juice is holding onto the ball a little longer than he should.

I still see things I cant stand with Zook, still had special teams gaffs, blown coverages dumb penalties etc.

I will say this, this team showed some spit and vinegar,

1) running the play down to make the tackle at the 2.
2) the defense stepping up to make a game changing stand at the goal line.

Like I said, a bubble screen is a pass that any starting QB in D1 can make. Juice has been making those since he was a freshman. Sounds like years to me.




Again, you have to look at the passes he completed. I watched the first series again while in bed last night. 3 of the completions were on that first series - a bubble screen to Benn, a sideline pass to LeShore at the LoS and a pass 2 yards downfield to Jenkins (I think). That's 3 of his 8 completions right there, none of them more than 5 yards downfield, none of them into coverage. I'm not going to complain about that, but let's not pretend those were difficult throws or that he was somehow appreciably more accurate on Saturday than he's been all year. He wasn't - he just threw easier balls.



This is actually a pretty interesting question if you ask me. It gets back to the question of whether defenses have adjusted to Juice/Zook's scheme, forcing Schultz to use Juice as a pocket passer or whether Schultz just screwed up royally by trying to change Juice on his own. I will certainly grant that, to the extent Schultz has had the opportunity to call a game like Saturday and hasn't done so, he's screwed up royally and that Juice is a pretty darn good player when he's playing that kind of defense.



I won't disagree about Cumberland's play this year. Probably the most disappointing player on the team if you ask me. I'll go back and rewatch the play, but I recall it going off his fingertips. Certainly not fair to call it a drop. It's not like it hit him in the palms and he just flubbed it.




Sure. My only point was that you can't point to the sacks as proof of bad offensive line play to rehabilitate Juice's reputation without context. Totally agree on the 2nd and 17 call (the boos were audible, even on tv) and Zook's clock management. Terrible all year.



You know that's not fair to all the great Illinois QBs that have come before Juice. The Michigan teams have been substantially worse than any team Michigan has fielded in a long time (perhaps decades). As a point of reference, Michigan didn't leave the top 25 during the entire decade of the 90s. In addition, most Illini QBs didn't even play Michigan 3 times. IIRC, even Kittner, who started for 4 years, only played them twice (and should have beaten them both times, but for those crooked Big Ten refs). Like I said, if we could bank the rest of Juice's eligibility and bring him back against Michigan every year, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I'm not convinced yet that Schultz is the crux of the problem. I certainly do think it's possible.

Atmostphere.

I was at the game and the atmosphere was spirited before the game because it was Halloween. Had it not been for Halloween and a dry game time forecast I'd guess we would have seen a lot more no shows. Most of the stands were pretty full except for spots in the end zone and in the upper corner of the student section. Grass lots were wet and soft in the a.m. but not so bad by the afternoon .

The game.

The first drive got folks pumped but MI stormed back which didn't help. The missed FG attempt after the fumble recovery had folks pretty miffed and the 3 and outs and lost yards due to QB sacks had folks booing at the end of the first half. Many expected Charest to be the QB in the 2nd half.

After the long MI pass that was just short I saw a few folks get up BEFORE we had a chance to stuff them. They said they had seen this enough all season. To me they score and given our history this year yes it's over but why leave before they even score?

The tackle, the stand, the run. Those 3 plays in a matter of minutes meant a 14 point swing in our direction and a huge momentum shift. You could see slumped shoulders on the MI sideline and for the first time this year AN EXCITED ILLINOIS BENCH!

After that the Illini on both sides of the ball finally played llike they we thought they should have all year. In a word CONFIDENCE. Something we have lacked all year.

The rest of the 3rd quarter the Illini looked like they did vs. Michigan last year and during our wins in 07' Juice made good reads on the option and finally hit some passes with some great catches. Blocking all the way around was better.


The players:

Juice had his best game since last year and probably since Michigan last year in Ann Arbor...in the 2nd half. Juice in the 2nd quarter looked like this year's version. He wasn't getting help on pass blocking but he has got to scramble or get rid of the ball. We were ready for Charest in the 3rd but it made sense to let Juice get us out of the hole on our 1 yard line if only to get breathing room.

Leshoure: What can you say except that we found our number 1 back. We could see it back to the OSU game and why he didn't more touches until the last few games I don't know. Ford is good too but Leshoure could be dominant next year if he keeps his head on straight. I don't expect to see much of Dufrene or Pollard anymore.

Hawthorne: The kid may have saved the game, the rest of the season and Zook's job and he's a freshman. His play is inspirational and he'll be fun to watch the next few years.


The win. No, it wasn't like 1983 as SO much was riding on the game that year like the Rose Bowl and B10 title but if felt good REAL GOOD all the same. This was our version of the Cubs futility. Beating Michigan at home IS a big deal.
I just wish the game had more riding on it..like securing a bowl berth.

Zooks future:
For many folks just beating Michigan quieted the talk about Zook as most want to just enjoy the historic win. But after the dust settles the jury is still our for most fans. While still a disappointing season a few more wins will quiet some but not all. Obviously if we win 3 or 4 more RG won't fire him and most would understand that. If, however, we lose the rest or win only one more, the cry for change will be quite loud but will RG listen?

Eller also hit the upright on the second to last extra point. He finally hit the last extra point dead center. Not sure what his problem has been. On the blocked punt, the announcers claimed that the guy ran untouched right between two of our "blockers". If we expect to beat Minny at their place, special teams has to be better than this.

I think for at least the next year or so Zook will be judged on the most recent game. If we lose to Minny like we did to Purdue then people will be calling for his head again.

I am still calling for his head, even WITH this win.

The team played a solid game on saturday. But we still saw some of the same things that directly point to poor coaching.

More special teams mistakes, errors etc. Seriosuly when was the last time we had a game where the special teams was even average? Ie no turnovers, no missed kicks, no shanked punts, no mistakes in fielding punts or kicks, no long returns against us, no penalties.

We still saw some stupid penalties, and I still dislike the defensive schemes.

At leat this week we didnt shuttle QBs in and out of the game.

Unless this team wins out, I want Zook gone.

I understand the sentiment, but I don't want Zook gone if RG selects his replacement. Do you?

There are some great posts in this thread. Autolykos has a bitterness for Juice like I have developed for Zook. That long throw to Cumberland was a thing of beauty.

I talked to as many Michigan fans as possible at halftime Saturday and they wish Juice played for them. I enjoyed the irony of Michigan fans getting their picture taken at the Grange statue. Michigan fans have suffered the last few years. I'm ready to give up my hatred for Michigan and transfer whatever is left of it to Iowa.

Juice is certainly an incredibly gifted athlete. He has been amazingly durable and has given us everything he has. He has taken more of a pounding than any Illini player i've seen (would Robert Holcomb be next) without complaint. The only arm that I have seen in Memorial Stadium that may be as powerful as Juice is Farve. I saw Bobby Douglas and I was on the field with Wilson, Eason, and Trudeau in the summer of '83. If he had been taught to read coverage and have more confidence in his throws he'd be a rich young man next year. I'd love to see a team like the Saints pick him up and give him the opportunity that they have given Pierre. Maybe Ron Turner will give him an apprenticeship for a couple of years. He has the physical tools.

NOOOOOOOOOOO! You musn't allow a few wins to deter your hatred for Michigan.


Michigan Coach Carr models Michigan sportsmanship

Dick Rod keeping the tradition

16-6

The pass to Cumberland in the endzone looked like a drop to me.



Yep. Outrushing the other team and winning the turnover battle has been the formula for winning during the Zook years. (Obviously, that's always a good formula.) Unfortunately, we have won the turnover battle much the last 2 seasons, and our rushing attack has been lackluster until Michigan.



Yeah, that looked odd from watching on TV. He was basically kicking from the left hash mark and just kicked it straight ahead. I didn't see any hook or wind action or anything.

There were many stand out plays in this game. One other I would like to add was Jason Ford on a run play around the right side. He had one guy to beat in order to gain some yards, which he did. Then, after running up right sideline for a number of yards, instead of going out of bounds when surrounded by defenders, he just lowered his head and dragged the tacklers for about 5 more yards. It was nice to see some "nasty" out there from our players for a change!

Great post. I too have noticed Auto's dislike of Juice. MI: Did anyone feel sorry for the players Sat.? Maybe a tiny bit, but not for the MI fans. It was great to see them totally quiet for all of the 4th quarter. Juice: Great QB at IL with his potential unfortunately misdirected this year by a clueless coaching staff. Hopefully Schultz has it figured out now. I will always regret that Juice did not break the all time passing record. I fully expected him to do so at the outset of the season. At least he breaks his own total offensive yardage record every time he steps on the field. When he leaves the bar will be so high that I doubt anyone breaks it unless they change FB to 5 quarters. As an athlete I think he has NFL potential but not sure about the position which best fits him.

I've seen a lot of criticism of the special teams this year, and some of it is warranted, but I thought they looked just ok against Michigan. The two mistakes in my mind are the missed field goal and the blocked punt. But I don't recall any muffed punts or poor kickoff/punt coverage. Not stellar, but if we're talking about assigning a grade, I might have given us a C+ for our effort last Saturday.

d/d- if I am assigning a grade.

IMo C is for average ie, no blocks, no long run backs, no fumbles etc.

Its a flat out special teams failure anytime there is a blocked punt or kick imo.

Blocking on punts and kicks is something done since the very beginnings of football. It is pure execution, ie coaching.

Its just another in a long string of poor special teams plays that have killed Zooks teams.

But, but, but . . .

They do the swinging gate on extra points and the mad fire drill on kickoffs. That's got to count for extra credit, right?

:wall

I wouldn't argue with giving us a D grade for ST last week. But are special teams really what have "killed Zook teams"?...no way. I'm not saying it has never happened, but I don't recall a game where poor ST play has actually cost us a game. For the most part when Zook's teams lose it's because of fundamental breakdowns on offense and/or defense. I guess that's the sad state of this team right now...there are just so many things wrong, it's hard to point to one area and say "if only we were better at ____".

I think ST's have cost us a game or two a season in the Zook career.

For a couple of reasons.

The first being confidence, this team is low in confidence, anything poor hurts it.

Scheme, we play (or try to play) a bend bvut dont break defense. That type of defense assumes the offense cant put together 10-15 plays without making a mistake. We play an offense with personell that is best suited to the ground game, ie keep the game close.

When you give up 'hidden ' yardage via either turnovers, missed kicks, poor kickoff and punt coverage, you put the offense into longer drives, and give the defense less room to bend. Both help the opposition. Ie if the opposing team runs the ball back to the 45, 1 personal foul penaltyand our defense gives up 40 yards, the opposition scores a Td. If the opposing team runs the ball back to the 20, our defense gives up 0 penalties and 40 yards, the opposing team punts.

Do that a couple of times and you have a blowout where now we are forced to pass and the entire complexion of the game changes.

momentum Nothing worse than stopping a team, getting a punt. then turnign the ball back on a fumpble, or penalty. not only does it put the defense in a bad spot, but it also kills the general flow of the game.

Could you make the argument, that IF the special teams played the same way that the offense or defense etc could make up for things and we could still win. but I would also argue that the offense and defense woudl both play better AND look better if put into excellent field position with excellent special teams plays. Plus I think that special teams are a very coachable part of a team. IE with average talent you can still have solid special teams.

I agree. It does not take four and five star players to have successful special teams. During the 07 season ST clearly cost us games. The extra yardage teams go because of us having poor field position or giving excellent field position to the opposition would surely add up to several long drives. It was ridiculous.