Key to the Future, Zook and Illinois Football Options

[naF inillI]

I agree with most of your post Ralph. However, tf you are referring to Juice Williams with regard to terrible QB play then you sir are simply out of your mind. The reason Juice has had a difficult season is that we have a coaching staff that can't put together a sensible game plan that uses Juice's strengths.

We always forget to credit the opposition. The opposition has been able to scout Juice over the years and understand that he can't consistently make accurate passes into small windows (i.e. when the receiver doesn't have a 5 yard cushion). Unless you're seeing something different than me, I think Juice cannot hit his receivers in stride consistently, and he can't make those key passes on third down needed to keep drives going.

If I'm an opposing defense, I gear up to take away the option plays (and maybe some of the deeper routes that Juice has been able to hit) and I force Juice to make accurate passes on slant routes or hook patterns or whatever. I would design my whole game plan to dare Juice to make these passes that I don't think he can make consistently.

I know that our coaching staff is not made up of geniuses, but I would doubt even they would purposely call plays that they know Juice would have trouble making. I think they look at the defensive alignment and make the calls accordingly and cross their fingers. Now, when you face a defense like Michigan that can't stop the run even with 20 guys, then it's a different story.

I guess my point is, even though Juice is a kid who has given a lot to this program and I wish him nothing but the best, his weakness at accurately throwing some of the short to intermediate routes (that I believe must be made by a college QB) have made it easier for defenses to scheme us out of what we want to do. I am far from being a football genius, but that's the only explanation I have for the paltry performance we've seen by this offense.

[illiniflight33]

You said it yourself Zuppke. In order for the Illini to be successful with Schultz offense, they must be able to play defense. That was the formula at TCU and he was criticized for not passing enough. There is certainly no problem with that... EXCEPT... we haven't had a decent defense at Illinois in at least 10 years. And, with the scheme they run now, unless the opponent stops themselves, we aren't stopping anyone on a regular basis. Additionally, in order for that combination to work, we also need to play with some discipline. The penalties will kill any chance of success if we start relying heavily on the running game. I like some of the talent we have too, in fact, I like the talent we have this year... Unfortunately, we do not use it correctly.

A couple of things 1) I dont know for sure that we really have seen Schultz's offense. more like Schultz implementing Zook's offense. 2) Put truth serum into Schultz and he would tell you he doesnt have a QB (and possibly even a line) who can make the passes consistently enough to open up the offense forcing Schultz to play things close to the vest.

[Illinigrad]

We always forget to credit the opposition. The opposition has been able to scout Juice over the years and understand that he can't consistently make accurate passes into small windows (i.e. when the receiver doesn't have a 5 yard cushion). Unless you're seeing something different than me, I think Juice cannot hit his receivers in stride consistently, and he can't make those key passes on third down needed to keep drives going.

If I'm an opposing defense, I gear up to take away the option plays (and maybe some of the deeper routes that Juice has been able to hit) and I force Juice to make accurate passes on slant routes or hook patterns or whatever. I would design my whole game plan to dare Juice to make these passes that I don't think he can make consistently.

I know that our coaching staff is not made up of geniuses, but I would doubt even they would purposely call plays that they know Juice would have trouble making. I think they look at the defensive alignment and make the calls accordingly and cross their fingers. Now, when you face a defense like Michigan that can't stop the run even with 20 guys, then it's a different story.

I guess my point is, even though Juice is a kid who has given a lot to this program and I wish him nothing but the best, his weakness at accurately throwing some of the short to intermediate routes (that I believe must be made by a college QB) have made it easier for defenses to scheme us out of what we want to do. I am far from being a football genius, but that's the only explanation I have for the paltry performance we've seen by this offense.

Lots of good points. I still feel that the option was not called enough in earlier games. I went back at one point and looked at the MO game and both the option play and long ball were simply not being used very much in lieu of drop back passing and runs off tackle without the QB reading the defensive ends and possibly keeping the ball. I do admit that playing the defenses of PSU and OSU are not the same these days as playing MI. Regardless, I still wonder if Schultz and Zook did the best scheming possible with the players they had. I have a hard time discounting Juice's passing skills when he has shown he can put up simply remarkable numbers in a game.

[Illinigrad]

Regardless of the cause, in the Illini games I have seen, I have seen number 7 playing the QB position terribly. I agree, it is likely a result of horrible coaching, but it is still bad QB play. O'Keefe tried to turn Brad Banks into a pocket passer during the layoff between the end of the regular season and the Orange Bowl a few years ago, and the results were less than stellar. You've got to let a guy play to his strengths.

Juice beating Michigan twice is not really that big of an accomplishment given the turnaround there. Stanzi clearly would have done the same had we played Michigan last year. This is not the same Michigan we have seen forever and Iowa has rarely beaten them twice in a row, the last time was '02 and '03, but we had a different QB in '03.

Juice played a nice game against Iowa last year, he hit on a deep pass to soften up the d and had a great drive against our stupid 3 man rush to set up the game winning field goal. So that game and the Michigan game this year makes 2 nice games in a year. Not exactly the recipe for winning 7 or 8 games consistently.

I agree that Juice has not been at his best this season. Nevertheless, when you look at his overall body of work and still with 4 games left he has shown to be a remarkable option QB pass second. Play to those strengths and he is hard to beat. Zook, starting last year, tried to convert him more to a pocket passer thinking it would improve his NFL appeal. It has not worked. What we have seen is a coaching staff limiting a wonderful option QB. Juice's lack of success the past several games is due more to the coaching staff than Juice not having the skills to play well given the right kind of play calling. In spite of all this, he is setting records that may never be broken at IL and there are still four games left. He also is in the top 10 and climbing in all big 10 records. Not to shabby if you ask me. It continues to puzzle me why folks don't give Juice credit for what he has accomplished. His accomplishments are pretty amazing as are his skills as an option running QB. Truly, the coaching staff mishandled Juice.

[ralphmaccio]

I would also note that as you mention each of those two QBs has had a 10-win season, they also have ADs who schedule cupcakes in the nonconference, something that will never happen under here under Guenther.

Chandler's non-con games were against Miami of Ohio (the year they finished 9th in the country with Roethlisberger), Arizona State (a good team with Suggs dominating on defense) and Iowa State before they cratered. This year's Illini squad would have had a hard time going 3-0 against those teams, but it doesn't help when you schedule Cincinnati in a year like this one.

[ralphmaccio]

I agree that Juice has not been at his best this season. Nevertheless, when you look at his overall body of work and still with 4 games left he has shown to be a remarkable option QB pass second. Play to those strengths and he is hard to beat. Zook, starting last year, tried to convert him more to a pocket passer thinking it would improve his NFL appeal. It has not worked. What we have seen is a coaching staff limiting a wonderful option QB. Juice's lack of success the past several games is due more to the coaching staff than Juice not having the skills to play well given the right kind of play calling. In spite of all this, he is setting records that may never be broken at IL and there are still four games left. He also is in the top 10 and climbing in all big 10 records. Not to shabby if you ask me. It continues to puzzle me why folks don't give Juice credit for what he has accomplished. His accomplishments are pretty amazing as are his skills as an option running QB. Truly, the coaching staff mishandled Juice.

Dude, Juice's stats are a function of starting games for 4 years and the style of offenses changing drastically. He's a nice QB at times, but if you think he is one of the 10 best QBs ever in the Big Ten because of his place in the statbook, you are mistaken. If he would have committed to Iowa, he'd be playing WR right now like other converted QBs such as Marvin McNutt and DJK.

[miggytorres]

It took a 18 year old frosh safety to run down and tackle a guy on the 1 ft line to fire up the Defense, something our HC nor DC could do in the previous 12 months.

We still have no leadership from coaches nor upperclassmen .

We're still underdogs, IMO , every game left. I won't really feel better until we win out. This season we should be 5-3 right now at worst. We're 2-6. And people want to talk about the future with Zook?

We remain the most poorly coached team I have ever seen in my life, at ANY level.

Completely agree, although I'd argue every team but the 2007 Rose Bowl season under Zook would be close....

Other than the 2001/7 teams, has any program in the B10 had a crappier time during the Ron Reign (Guenther, Turner, Zook, to be exact).....for christsakes, when will it end? Ron Burgundy?

[Illinigrad]

Dude, Juice's stats are a function of starting games for 4 years and the style of offenses changing drastically. He's a nice QB at times, but if you think he is one of the 10 best QBs ever in the Big Ten because of his place in the statbook, you are mistaken. If he would have committed to Iowa, he'd be playing WR right now like other converted QBs such as Marvin McNutt and DJK.

Juice already has broken the all time yardage record of any IL player. Now he breaks that record every time he steps on the field. He is not that far from being the number 2 passing QB at IL both for passing yardage and number of TDS thrown and he would almost certainly have broken at least one of those records if he had not been injured some this season and been used the way he should have been by the coaching staff. I never said Juice was one of the all time top 10 QBs in the B10. What I did say was that he was continuing to move up the record chart in the B10, which specifically is for all purpose yards. He will probably end up in the top five. Juice is a fabulous option and pass second QB who is much more than just serviceable as witnessed by his record breaking career. As far as playing for IA, as a high school athlete, he was sought after by much better programs and would never have considered IA. Sorry, but its the truth.

[illiniflight33]

Dude, Juice's stats are a function of starting games for 4 years and the style of offenses changing drastically. He's a nice QB at times, but if you think he is one of the 10 best QBs ever in the Big Ten because of his place in the statbook, you are mistaken. If he would have committed to Iowa, he'd be playing WR right now like other converted QBs such as Marvin McNutt and DJK.

I am not sure Juice is a top 10 Qb for Illinois. let alone the Big Ten. Top 10 Qb in the history of the Big ten maybe. But not much higher.

Heck is he even a top 7 Qb in the Big Ten this season?

[Illinigrad]

I am not sure Juice is a top 10 Qb for Illinois. let alone the Big Ten. Top 10 Qb in the history of the Big ten maybe. But not much higher. Heck is he even a top 7 Qb in the Big Ten this season?

Juice's overall body of work suggest that he is more deserving than most folks allow.

[ralphmaccio]

Juice already has broken the all time yardage record of any IL player. Now he breaks that record every time he steps on the field. He is not that far from being the number 2 passing QB at IL both for passing yardage and number of TDS thrown and he would almost certainly have broken at least one of those records if he had not been injured some this season and been used the way he should have been by the coaching staff. I never said Juice was one of the all time top 10 QBs in the B10. What I did say was that he was continuing to move up the record chart in the B10, which specifically is for all purpose yards. He will probably end up in the top five. Juice is a fabulous option and pass second QB who is much more than just serviceable as witnessed by his record breaking career. As far as playing for IA, as a high school athlete, he was sought after by much better programs and would never have considered IA. Sorry, but its the truth.

Am I the victim of some sort of elaborate flame here?

[ralphmaccio]

Juice's overall body of work suggest that he is more deserving than most folks allow.

Barring a miracle, his overall body of work will include backing into one Rose Bowl on the shoulders of RM5, Kevin Mitchell and J Leman. Good QBs find a way to win enough ball games to get to bowls every year. Stats are fine and dandy, but I'd rather have a statistically bad QB who wins games than a statistically good QB who loses games.

[miggytorres]

This program/team is awful to watch and who is under center is a big, although not one of the most pressing, concerns....

-do they have a "scheme" or gameplan?....and do they execute it?
-do they block anyone on offense?
-do they make tackles on defense?
-do they have appropriate coverage on defense?
-have they corrected pre-snap penalties and dumb personal foul penalties throughout the year?

The answer has consistently been "NO" under Zook....

why worry about the legacy of Juice when they can't get any of the basics above right?

[Illinigrad]

Barring a miracle, his overall body of work will include backing into one Rose Bowl on the shoulders of RM5, Kevin Mitchell and J Leman. Good QBs find a way to win enough ball games to get to bowls every year. Stats are fine and dandy, but I'd rather have a statistically bad QB who wins games than a statistically good QB who loses games.

Get real. The above is impossible when you have a mediocre to bad coaching staff.

[naF inillI]

This program/team is awful to watch and who is under center is a big, although not one of the most pressing, concerns....

-do they have a "scheme" or gameplan?....and do they execute it?
-do they block anyone on offense?
-do they make tackles on defense?
-do they have appropriate coverage on defense?
-have they corrected pre-snap penalties and dumb personal foul penalties throughout the year?

The answer has consistently been "NO" under Zook....

why worry about the legacy of Juice when they can't get any of the basics above right?

Don't forget to add Zook's refusal to place any importance whatsoever on special teams. Special teams can win and lose games and his units have been the worst in the Big 10 every year he's been coaching. This is clearly a systematic problem.

[miggytorres]

Don't forget to add Zook's refusal to place any importance whatsoever on special teams. Special teams can win and lose games and his units have been the worst in the Big 10 every year he's been coaching. This is clearly a systematic problem.

Busted....good call....almost forgot how horrible those were....again, Davis/Benn's big runs from two year ago masked a lot of glaring weaknesses in the kicking game, punt coverage, etc.

[Illinigrad]

Am I the victim of some sort of elaborate flame here?

Short answer: No.